Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder Support Group

A support group for those with OCPD and their loved ones.
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 Post subject: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:14 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:27 pm
Posts: 112
At the core, people with OCPD are very emotionally sensitive people. Emotionally sensitive people are, by nature, very generous. They want to help others, be nice to others, fix problems for others. This makes them feel good. Emotionally sensitive people who lack true self-esteem and have fear of rejection, though, will unfortunately spend so much energy trying to gain a sense of self-worth and acceptance through being "nice." So a lot of people with OCPD get into dysfunctional relationships with very messed up, broken people (there's more to fix). If you're a non on this board, my guess is, there's a big chance you're one of those messed up, broken people. But since your partner just happens to have a medically termed label, i bet many of you forget that you are probably quite messed up too and you contribute just as much to the complications in your relationship.

We're all messed up. OCPDers and their partners. Stop thinking that your shit don't stink and go and fight for your relationship, not just for yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 2623
Kit, the title of this post suggests that you're giving on to the anger that you're scolding about in your other post.

My view is that people with OCPD tend to get into relationships with "nice" people, with people pleasers who try to follow all of the OCPD rules. That niceness is, yes, dysfunctional - following the rules imagined by OCPD is not good for the person with OCPD OR with their partner.

It's a little bit like entering a relationship with someone who has an eating disorder and cooking them all of their favorite foods, to make them happy.You can't stop that person from eating, and you can't stop the person with OCPD from making rules and raging, but you can minimize the extent to which you enable them in continuing those dysfunctional behaviors. And sometimes the only way you can stop enabling them is to walk away.

Kit, why is anger and judgement, as demonstrated in your post in this thread, OK for you, and not for us?


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:27 pm
Posts: 112
I never said anger is not ok. I said it's part of the human experience to feel anger. I believe it is also a righteous anger to feel angry about relationships breaking apart due to poor, dishonouring relationship practices (I have a passion for relationship, family, marriage).
But is it judgmental for me to say "you think your shit don't stink?" I'm implying that I already know my shit stinks. My words were "WE'RE all messed up." Is that the message most of the nons write?... that we're all messed up? no it's not. The message that nons mostly write is OCPDers are (insert judgmental label here). so no... we aren't doing the same thing so you can't say "OK for you, and not for us."

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Last edited by kidkimbo on Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 2623
So your anger is "different" from our anger. Yours is justified and ours is wrong.

No. I don't accept that.

If someone with OCPD rages about crumbs on the counter, and their non-OCPD partner is angry at being raged at, how is the first anger OK and non-judgemental and the second anger wrong and judemental? Are crumbs a truly serious problem, while raging at the ones that you love is not an offense at all?


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:27 pm
Posts: 112
Where are you getting this justified vs unjustified anger? I never said there's an anger that is justified and anger that is not... all emotions that we humans experience are valid. Everyone's anger is valid. Mine as well as yours. It's good that you don't accept it. I don't either haha.

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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:04 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:27 pm
Posts: 112
Quote:
If someone with OCPD rages about crumbs on the counter, and their non-OCPD partner is angry at being raged at, how is the first anger OK and non-judgemental and the second anger wrong and judemental? Are crumbs a truly serious problem, while raging at the ones that you love is not an offense at all?


Both first and second anger is valid and nonjudgmental. In this example you wrote, there is no one thinking in his/her head "He/She IS a hopeless mess," "He/She IS _____," "He/She IS _____." That would be judgment. Favasquash, perhaps i was unclear in my post "Negativity on this blog..." (http://ocpd.freeforums.org/negativity-on-this-blog-t4236.html), but I think you might have misunderstood my distinction between anger, negativity, judgment...

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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 9:56 pm
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kidkimbo wrote:
Both first and second anger is valid and nonjudgmental. In this example you wrote, there is no one thinking in his/her head "He/She IS a hopeless mess,"


Odds are that both are indeed thinking such things. People with OCPD often call their partners lazy, sloppy, uncaring, and so on. Their partners, when called these names, are likely to call the OCPD partner abusive. So, again, why do you only point to the non-OCPD partners as judgmental?


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:27 pm
Posts: 112
And I agree with you that those judgmental thoughts about "lazy," "sloppy," "uncaring" that many OCPDers are guilty of making are very unhealthy. I am very against this too. But even if odds are that both are indeed thinking such things, I want to encourage people to go against those odds and practice healthy ways of experiencing their anger for the welfare of their relationship.

I don't only point to the non-OCPD partners as judgmental. I know OCPDers can be very judgmental and I write about the consequences of that a lot in my blog. But yes, in that forum post I wrote I was communicating specifically to the nons. Why? Because I want to help the nons find freedom from their compulsion to judge and think negatively. to show them the consequences of judgment and negativity. because I care about nons too. and there's a lot of nons here on this forum looking for help.

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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:53 am
Posts: 238
My first thought was not to engage in this thread but yes, I do have my own issues. One of them is why in the world I choose to go into a relationship that is controlling and verbally abusive. Yes, I own my shit but he doesn't own his. And when there is a metal watch being thrown at my head, it's easy to be justified in being angry but not justified in him throwing a watch at my head regardless of being angry.

MY shit does stink, but my smell doesn't clear out the house, his does. That's why I am leaving. He'd happily stay in this status quo forever.


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Posts: 696
Location: U.S.
Kid - I appreciate the heck out of this type discussion. I found this site and am amazed at the # of horrific stories of what OCPD does. The overwhelming majority of the posts that I have read seem to point towards the OCPD as the one who has to change and/or moderate their excess everything....Yes, the OCPD person is usually the one who keeps the argument going, but it does take two to tango....an OCPD type person should probably be the Loner, or Mad Scientist - I was single until almost age 40 because I had seen the damages from Marriage and relationships and did not want any part of that fiasco....being single, it is alot easier to justify your correctness....people think you eccentric,or creative, quirky, artistic,etc....But, then these wonderful traits and (very) practiced routines do not relate to another loving person - YES, an OCPD person can love others and feel sympathy, just our perfecting the other people in our lives is a pain in the Ass....if they could just do everything we wanted (They Can't..), then we would be Happy....Not...I think learning to watch the Triggers and having some threshold for engaging others and their own weird ( to me) ways is essential. It's like there needs to be an OCPD Police Dept that decides what is fair and if an OCPD'r can participate, or should,,,

_________________
A+ (98) - Cammer Test

Conscientiousness is the defining feature of OCPD from which many of the other symptoms follow. http://sgo.sagepub.com/content/3/3/2158244013500675


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:27 pm
Posts: 150
kidkimbo wrote:
At the core, people with OCPD are very emotionally sensitive people. Emotionally sensitive people are, by nature, very generous. They want to help others, be nice to others, fix problems for others. This makes them feel good. Emotionally sensitive people who lack true self-esteem and have fear of rejection, though, will unfortunately spend so much energy trying to gain a sense of self-worth and acceptance through being "nice." So a lot of people with OCPD get into dysfunctional relationships with very messed up, broken people (there's more to fix). If you're a non on this board, my guess is, there's a big chance you're one of those messed up, broken people. But since your partner just happens to have a medically termed label, i bet many of you forget that you are probably quite messed up too and you contribute just as much to the complications in your relationship.

We're all messed up. OCPDers and their partners. Stop thinking that your shit don't stink and go and fight for your relationship, not just for yourself.


It's funny, because I'm an emotionally sensitive person who wants to be nice to others and make them happy, lacks self-esteem (well, that part is getting better, thank God), and has a fear of rejection. That's why it hurts so much every time DH, who suffers from OCPD, criticizes me. That's also partly why I was drawn to a broken person -- the desire to fix. I know that DH, at his core, also has self-esteem issues and fears rejection; however, this does give him the right to verbally abuse or control me.

We all can feel whatever emotions we fee, but we don't have the right to express them whatever way we choose when that hurts another person. I believe we don't have the right to express anger over honest mistakes and minor differences in the way people do things -- like leaving crumbs on the counter. If we feel we must say something, we can raise issues in a loving way and try to reach a compromise, the way a healthy relationship is supposed to work. I do believe we have the right to express anger over being treated poorly, especially when bringing up the issue in a loving way doesn't work. I also don't believe we have the right to express anger, even over legitimate issues, by physically or verbally abusing the other person.

Nons don't need to write about our shortcomings. We tend to hear about them often at home. When I tell DH that I don't want him to keep yelling at me or the kids, he likes to bring up whatever my shortcomings are -- I am talking too loudly about the issue, I'm not disciplining the kids enough, etc, etc. I've learned that if I let him shift the discussion to what I need to change, it never gets back to what he needs to change. It's because I do see EVERYTHING that's wrong with me that I have to make myself stronger and not take on more than my fair share of the blame. It's like a woman who is physically abused who says, "If I was different he wouldn't hit me." Well, she knows she isn't perfect, but that doesn't make it right for him to hit her and if she focuses too much on her imperfections, she starts to forget that she doesn't deserve to be hit. Nons come here, in part, to be strong in refusing to blame themselves and to stop thinking that, if they just follow the rules better, their spouse will stop being angry at them.


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:37 pm
Posts: 677
[quote="kidkimbo"]They want to help others, be nice to others, fix problems for others[quote]

In my experience they start off being nice but sure enough there partner drinks there coffee the wrong way or makes too much noise whilst eating, then Armageddon begins.

I agree that I was a bit messed up or I would call it naive to be honest, and by pampering to her needs I certainly contributed to the problems by enabling her bad behavior. The thing she struggles with is my adaptability and propensity to change. I am the same person I always was at the beginning of the relationship. The difference is I got wise to all (OK maybe not all) the excuses and passive aggressive stuff. I accept Ocpd "it is was it is" probably always will be.

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"You can have Excuses or Results not Both"


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 2623
The nons do unhealthy things, too, but I suspect that the OCPDers aren't going to want to hear those admissions:

"I was wrong to allow you to shout at me. I should have hung up much sooner."

"I was wrong to hide my bag of cookies when you told me to stop eating cookies. I should have eaten what I wanted, in plain sight, without allowing you to dictate to me."

"I was wrong to wipe the counter when you complained about the crumbs. I should have told you that if you wanted that done before after-dinner cleanup, you needed to do it yourself."

"When you told me to get up and cross the house to turn off a light switch that you were standing next to, I was wrong to comply."

I would probably advocate that they do say exactly these things, but would that make you feel any better?


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:40 am
Posts: 709
So let me preface my comments with: I am very new to all this--both the forum and the realization that OCPD exists (and that I'm a non in a relationship with an OCPD BF).

There is negativity and then there is reality. While it's true that many of the nons here have quite negative things to say, this is mainly rooted in the real, disordered, sometimes downright abusive experiences they've had and are relating. I understand your point that to you (and all OCPDers), your experience is quite the same, but opposite--you feel your experiences with nons can be confounding, "disordered", etc.

Taken on a superficial glance, this is true--both kinds of people see the world differently and then react when the other does not fit our "mold" or "expectation".

However, when taken on the extreme, which is where the bulk of negative associations are discussed here, it's clear that this negativity exists because the experiences are, OBJECTIVELY negative! Please tell me how insisting on a full shower before entering the house--every time, even if it means 5 showers a day--isn't a "negative"? Please tell me how yelling at your spouse for leaving crumbs on the counter isn't a "negative"? Please tell me how flatly, and devoid of a emotion, a loved one can look at a person and say "You're haircut is really unattractive" isn't a "negative"? Or any of the other extreme examples that have been ranted on here aren't "negative"?

Again, I'm not talking about the minor things. All relationships need give and take, compromise and sacrifice, and a healthy dose of compassion for your partner's differences. What I've read here is NOT talking about that. I think most have been in these relationships for a really long time, and if things could have been fixed, would have done so. Hell, I'm in the "honeymoon" phase of my relationship and have already decided that if my OCPD BF cannot become self aware enough to seek out help and work on himself, there will be no future because I will not stand for being made to feel uncomfortable in my own skin. I certainly have my share of issues, most of which I would say I have dealt with in a healthy manner thanks to much therapy in my past. I would never profess to be perfect. But I am willing to compromise, sacrifice, and give--and so far my OCPD BF is notsomuch. If he can meet me half way (which given the circumstances of most OCPDers is A LOT more work, pain, etc. for him than for me, a non) then I will continue to stick it out. I am crazy in love with this guy but need more than love alone to make it for the long haul. I have never been negative about him as a person, but have been quite forthright (negatively) recently about some of his behaviors.

And then there is the "intent" argument I've heard quite a bit as a rationalization to the OCPD behavior. They desperately love, feel, etc. but can't express it or express it in a painful way to their nons. To me, that holds little consolation. If I reach out to pet a scared dog and it bites me, that wound hurts just as bad as bite from an aggressive dog. Even though I know the scared dog didn't mean it, the pain remains.

HRH


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Posts: 696
Location: U.S.
I remember some of my paternal side Aunt's speaking about my biological Mom's tantrum's,etc when they would all gather round. My Aunt would say..."She could control it, but won't" - now, this ability to control her emotions was in the 1940's - 50's and since my Mom was of Irish heritage, the diagnosis of Schizophrenia just kind of stuck, even through vicious drugs, many multiples of electro-shock therapy(ect), etc...OCPD is a "gift", but it's a Tiger by the tail of an offering,and hurts the OCPD person just like a non. But, nobody likes an a$$hole, no matter what diagnosis they have....being cool and learning to control things is taking alot of work, on my part, and if I didn't have a wife, kids and nieces, nephews, probably wouldn't care one way or another to try and control the OCPD, as long as I had my space....but, bringing another Human Being into this world without the ability to cope with this crap, has motivated me....now, to breathe....

_________________
A+ (98) - Cammer Test

Conscientiousness is the defining feature of OCPD from which many of the other symptoms follow. http://sgo.sagepub.com/content/3/3/2158244013500675


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