Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder Support Group

A support group for those with OCPD and their loved ones.
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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:44 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:41 pm
Posts: 68
KK speaks some truths here (I haven't read his other posts yet). I think there has to be something in us nons that makes us attractive to OCPDers. And vice-versa. Like unhealthy magnets. I wouldn't say one is necessarily worse than the other. It comes down to differing values and how neither person has the skills to get their needs met effectively. I own that I'm sensitive also--a little too empathetic in fact, to the point where I'm not aware of my own feelings and not taking care of myself. Looking back we didn't have good communicationI and half of that is me. I look for external solutions, but in the end the environment of living with an OCPDer is just one piece of the puzzle: my biology and psychology are 2 areas that still need to be dealt with. Sometimes there are more internal things with nons than meet the eye. We are all doing the best we can with the skills we have. This debate is helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:39 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:07 am
Posts: 988
Hi Opal,

There is often a whole lot of truth in what ocpd'ers say. That is why they cannot see the flaws in the reasoning they (need to) make to maintain their internal ocpd-consistency. But if you look at the people on this board, the non's, one can hardly say that we are a group of similar people, although it seems fair to say that most of us have had to dig pretty deep in our own minds to keep ourselves going. I do not believe that ocpd'ers pick out 'weak', empathetic people that afterwards cannot stand the heat.

I would say from the stories on this board that ocpd'ers seem to fall in love in the same way as any of us, admiring a person for some real good points, really connecting during courtship, and then dealing badly with the reality of the less than perfect person we are (and what is more, without the ambition of becoming perfect). As the ocpd'ers are quite different people among themselves, it would seem that they fall in love with a wide range of people too. The similarity in behavior of ocpd'ers is not really related to similarity in personality, it is related to the disorder ocpd - which is exactly why it is a disorder. I have always felt that most of the ocpd-behavior of my ex is out of character, to the point that I can kind of accept that she does not believe that she is capable of doing what she has really done - so it did not happen, right. OCPD is obviously not their fault, but I would say it is not our fault either. We have at some time seemed to offer our partner a way to become happy, strong enough to be admired, or maybe because some of us have more empathy than their partner, or whatever.

The only thing I can see is that some people having had a first partner that was a complete mess, have been attracted to the orderliness surrounding the ocpd'er. But other than that: I can see no use in trying to go too deeply in the partner selection and the possibility that w either party is to blame. There is too much diversity here to warrant that idea.


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:50 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:41 pm
Posts: 68
Points well taken, BG!


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:12 pm
Posts: 721
Hi MarriedtoOne,

MarriedtoOne wrote:
Moderator, Can we ban the OCPD'rs from our side? I find this counter productive and I'm ready to completely lose it on the KK threads. I might get myself banned and I don't want to do that because this forum is a good support for me.


No, I'm not going to do that. Since I created the forum in May, 2002 this issue has been considered and discussed quite a bit. One suggestion was to create a separate, private board for nons only so they could vent. That I believe might cut down on the board activity even to the point it might become virtually inactive, as often happens with private forums. Then we have nothing. And if we ban the OCPDers from the main board, they really have no where to go. The "shared experience" model seems to work pretty well for the nons, and brings them together, but the "shared experience" model doesn't work well with OCPDers, for some reason. Maybe because we're dealing with ourselves rather than another person.

By the way, the main board is not the "nons" board even though it seems that way. It's for everyone. There's the private OCPDonly board for the OCPDers, but no similar private board for the nons, for the reason I gave above.

I understand the issue with kidkimbo's posts can be difficult. He's criticizing the atmosphere of the forum, rather than one person. And yet to respond to him is to possibly criticize him as a person, which might violate the forum rules. KK seems perfectly sincere in what he believes so I can't fault him for posting. And people do criticize KK but they seem to do it in a measured way, sometimes even with a bit of a sense of humor. I think people are getting along with each other.

You might follow fava's and others' advice about not reading the "green" posts, or using the "foes" feature to manage what you read. If the OCPDers are banned from the main forum then there's no thriving forum where they can read and post. So you might consider your tolerating the OCPDers here as a kind of public service to give OCPDers an option to improve their mental health.

Sincerely, Paul


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:49 pm
Posts: 122
kidkimbo wrote:
The message that nons mostly write is OCPDers are (insert judgmental label here). so no... we aren't doing the same thing so you can't say "OK for you, and not for us."

To me the threads with OCPD 'rules' in them are the big telling point. The nons all have the same stories of bizarre rules from their OCPDers, which have to be followed to avoid a rage, along with pretty similar posts about how they'd like things to be.

The green names, on the other hand, frequently look at other peoples' rules or read about someone else's OCPD logic and say "that's wrong" even if they can't identify the same flaws in their own rules.

So you have one group where pretty much everyone is agreeing on the issues faced by dealing with the other, and one group where the issues are all different and apparently arbitrary. I consider that compelling evidence that one group is more in need of hearing about, and dealing with, their issues than the other.


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:24 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:27 pm
Posts: 112
Why do people assume that I'm trying to make OCPD a good thing? Because of my tagline? because my blog has the caption "a gift that just NEEDS a little GRACE"? I don't think OCPD is a good thing and I'm not trying to make it a good thing. Those of you who think that I look at OCPD as a good thing obviously have only read my tagline and not the rest of my blog. What from my original post even suggested that I'm trying to make OCPD a good thing? "Golden shit"? when did I ever place OCPD shit higher than non's shit in this forum post? I am not attacking anyone in particular, I am just arguing that responding to anger with negativity and judgment is not healthy.. that it becomes a compulsion... and that I know from experience... but why do I then get attacked? instead of examining the words and arguments that i present, why do so many of you go deeper into who i am as a person, my experience, my age? Why must you challenge me as a person? Is that necessary? How can so many of you assume that I am just hurt and angry?... what a way to invalidate my words and arguments... i can tell a lot of you have studied up on OCPD and are familiar with all the symptoms. but why must you take everything little point I make and try to match it with the symptoms?... another way to invalidate my words and arguments..

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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:16 am 
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Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 9:56 pm
Posts: 2623
Gifts are good things. If you don't think that OCPD is a good thing, why call it a gift?


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:56 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:20 pm
Posts: 2
Would you consider re-naming the blog 'OCPD is an opportunity' ?


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:15 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:31 pm
Posts: 53
Kid,

Sam Vaknin, as you know, sets himself up to serve the greater good by an extraordinary expose of his own narcissism. To all those who have been involved with narcissists, his deeper understanding has set many naive victims of narcissists free. You say that you have a passion for relationshiup, partnership and marriage. You seem to think that your writtings on this subject will miraculously transform poor relationships into good ones simply by gaining greater awareness into your own interpretation of a disorder which you yourself claim to have been healed from.

I do not for one second dispute your claims as I myself have recovered from variants on the same theme. I was born to a narcissistic father and histrionic/borderline mother. I went on to marry a borderline/narcissistic man and later to have a relationship with an OCPD/narcissistic man. My world has been full of destructive and opositional personalities and I believe that until I experienced a spiritual awakening and a deeper understanding of my broken authentic self that I too was privy to all cluster A characteristics. However, I would never dare to attempt to invalidate the cries for help from any human being who is being abused whether by a personality disordered partner or otherwise. It is the height of arrogance to believe that you are in any position to heal another human being unless you are either trained to do so or are God himself.

Your writings and your story is simply that - YOURS - and whilst many might glean some insight into their own journey from it, and may find it in their hearts to forgive because of it, that does not qualify you to assume you can either heal or mend broken people or their relationships. Moreover, it may be that each and every one of us on this board who either write a message, or post a reply are meant to be here. It may be that we were meant to meet, love and fall into despair about a person in our life who harms us. I know that from my own experience, I would never have come to know and like myself as much as I do had I not learnt from agonizing over abusers. I am now so far away from the person I once was that I often cannot remember where I have came from. That is the joy of healing.

My message, is a message of hope to all who come here to recover. There is meaning in every experience be it good or bad and you must find it in your hearts to forgive (for yourselves) those who harm your evolution into self. Forgiveness does not mean living with an abuser. Forgiveness does not mean compromising your own self esteem. Forgiveness means being unaffected by abusers. It means placing your own self interests above theirs. It means being able to live in the knowledge that they may leave you and go on to abuse and abuse again until eventually they too become tired of living with themselves.

Every post and every reply, whether we agree or disagree has value. Anything else is known as "invalidation" and it is the greatest form of covert abuse there is. It denies a person their voice and leaves them feeling helpless. It is the cause of the development of most personality disorders and it goes like this "if I am not heard as myself then I will deny who I am and become the sort of person people will listen to".

Songofreedom


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:49 pm
Posts: 122
whoops double post how do i delete it??


Last edited by WhiteLightning on Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:19 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:49 pm
Posts: 122
kidkimbo wrote:
but why do I then get attacked? instead of examining the words and arguments that i present, why do so many of you go deeper into who i am as a person, my experience, my age? Why must you challenge me as a person? Is that necessary? How can so many of you assume that I am just hurt and angry?... what a way to invalidate my words and arguments... i can tell a lot of you have studied up on OCPD and are familiar with all the symptoms. but why must you take everything little point I make and try to match it with the symptoms?... another way to invalidate my words and arguments..

I think an important step in overcoming the challenges of OCPD thinking is to avoid the assumption that a criticism of your opinion is an attack on your self.


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:17 pm
Posts: 1935
Location: SoCal - 5 yrs moved out/4 1/2 yrs broken up w/6 year live-in with OCPD b-f.
kidkimbo wrote:
I am just arguing that responding to anger with negativity and judgment is not healthy.. that it becomes a compulsion... and that I know from experience... but why do I then get attacked? instead of examining the words and arguments that i present, why do so many of you go deeper into who i am as a person, my experience, my age?
kid, I'm sorry you feel attacked.

It is human nature (not to mention common sense) to "consider the source," and to make judgments as to how valuable the arguments or statements might be.

If I want to learn to surf, or climb a mountain, I really don't CARE if somebody has thousands of theories and graphs about how to be a better surfer or mountain climber. I want my coach to be somebody who's had water up her nose or altitude sickness - somebody who has hands-on experience as well as "book learnin.'" If I can find someone who integrates both, great, but I am always going to be more attentive to someone who I feel has walked a mile in my moccasins.

When it comes to advice about OCPD+non relationships, I give more "weight" to things LizaJane, Francie, fava, more-freedom, morten, and even our OCPDmanager here, Paul (he's been stuck dealing with all of us lo these many years!) have to say about them, because they are and have been in relationships for a long time, than I do to someone who hasn't had that experience.

That's me. Other people may form their judgments differently, but we ALL form judgments about who is worth listening to, and who gets tuned out.

We cannot control other people, and their reactions to what we say or write. We can only control what we say or write.

As a writer, if I am getting a lot of negative feedback to something I am writing (and often I do), then I know I am not expressing myself clearly or well, and it is up to me to modify the way I deliver the message, not criticize the readers for not recognizing and applauding my brilliance.

_________________
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. – Anaïs Nin
Follow the latest Scoop: http://www.scoop.it/t/iso-mental-health-wellness
OCPD SO info: http://perfectlyawfulusa.blogspot.com


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:02 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:09 am
Posts: 1083
LovethatOCPD man,
Bravo, well said. Thanks for being so articulate.
gs


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:03 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:38 pm
Posts: 1978
hi Songofreedom, lovely post with so much in it, thank you for writing it. I've found Sam Vaknin's approach very helpful in dealing with myself.

_________________
'
People do not change when they see the light. They change when they feel the heat.  ― Freda Lewis-Hall


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 Post subject: Re: You think your shit don't stink?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:49 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:57 am
Posts: 78
I've thought a lot about these posts. I do have problems that I need to fix in myself. However, OCPDH is not a good source to find and work on those problems, because he criticizes so many things about me. I find that I spend a lot of time in introspection, trying to see what I can do better and then working on it. OCPDH doesn't seem to be able to admit that he has any faults that need fixing and is unwilling to own any of the problems in our relationship. In his mind if I would just do things his way then everything would be better and he would feel happy. Unfortunately I am not the source of his happiness and there is no way that I can do everything his way. If I did I've come to see that there would just be something else that I was doing wrong that was causing our problems. It is never-ending.

So I disagree with the original post. I think that many of the nons here have spent years trying to fix the things that the OCPDer in our lives has told us were wrong. Only now as we discover OCPD do we realize how much is broken in our relationships and our behaviors. Now we are on a quest to be our best selves and we are upsetting the routine that the OCPDer in our life has come to expect. I don't think that many (if any) nons don't believe that they have faults that they need to work on, but we come here to find consolation and understanding of OCPD and what being with OCPDer entails for us. We aren't here to discuss our failings as we are told those altogether too often.


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