Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder Support Group

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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:58 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:07 am
Posts: 988
Hi Selene,

Welcome to the board, sorry you need to be.

You may get a better response if you would start your story in its own thread, so you could maybe copy it from here and do so. Otherwise, your story may get drowned in the other discussion going on...


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:04 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:51 pm
Posts: 761
Quote:
francie wrote: All I have (potential) control over is my conscious mind.
I disagree with this. Our biology is largely transparent to us. Our liver functions without our knowledge, consent, or input. Yet, we have enormous impact on it. Over time we learn exactly how to support its health, or damage it. Most of our physical self is this way. Most of our mental self is too. IMO. We feed or damage these parts of ourselves like dropping crumbs to pigeons. Direct, immediate control over our sub-conscious? No. Long term influence? Yes.

SOF; I like your model of potential cause. May not be one trauma, but a long series or soaking pond of them. One cold mother could do it. One very tiny split off could be all it takes to generate all this mayhem. I rely on a similar model of cause to help me navigate. Right or wrong matters less than how effective its predictive benefits. The big question is how would you help someone come to light if this were so.


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:29 am 
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Posts: 53
So here's the thing. There is outstanding results for Dissociative Identity Disorder in therapy. Its almost impossible to diagnose and some therapists deny itsexistence. However, huge developments have taken place in this area over the last 10 years and if the foundations for this disorder are the same as for all personality disorders then there may be a cure in existence which already works. It doesnt surprise me if OCPDers claim great childhoods because they will have been trained from birth by disordered parents to believe this. The second coping personality has no memory of the neglect/abuse. Has no desire to remember it and goes to every effort to conceal its existence - even splitting off from themselves. What we then have is a personality that has rejected itself and has no problem rejecting others to avoid the truth. The original trauma holding personality carries not only the memories but also the emotions which could account for why OCPDers struggle to feel.


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:09 am 
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This is a great thread, I have a lot I'd love to add. I've gone back to uni this year to do my masters in neuroscience, what I have been learning is amazing ( for many reasons). I'm in the middle of exams at the moment, but would live to put a thread together with some of the science behind OcPd.
I've attached a link to a YouTube clip that briefly goes over parts of the limbic system and some of the parts of the brain that are responsible.
There is much more to it....but I'll get to it once my exams are over.


http://youtu.be/PNx9m54fjao


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:55 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:38 pm
Posts: 1978
gitterdone88 wrote:
Quote:
francie wrote: All I have (potential) control over is my conscious mind.
I disagree with this. Our biology is largely transparent to us. Our liver functions without our knowledge, consent, or input. Yet, we have enormous impact on it. Over time we learn exactly how to support its health, or damage it. Most of our physical self is this way. Most of our mental self is too. IMO. We feed or damage these parts of ourselves like dropping crumbs to pigeons. Direct, immediate control over our sub-conscious? No. Long term influence? Yes.
yes I agree - and the way I see us being able to influence our biology and unconscious is with conscious choice - choosing what to eat/not eat, choosing to exercise, choosing to pay attention to how we respond rather than acting reflexively - in the OCPD context, for ex., the compulsive reactions of rigidity, negativity, demand resistance, fear, rather than being open. No matter where those original impulses are coming from.

Personal change (other than that which might come about by aging or a more reflexive type of reaction to something happening to us for ex.) is a conscious choice; choosing to not just react, but to stop and consider first, so we can have a different response from what we've had before, in the moment, rather than going with the immediate reactions that may be harmful or less helpful or take us down that same path to negative results.

Each time I get to a place where I make a different choice in a situation I've been in before, it's an enlightening thing - because it introduces new potentials into my awareness for how things can be, options that just weren't there before. So wherever OCPD is coming from or from what amalgamation of things, through this process I can learn to influence outcomes to get results that I wasn't able to before. Same with our liver or other biological function - no matter the underlying health or sickness of something, we can learn to expand our influence over it.

Maybe that's why breathing is such an interesting part of the whole process - it's an unconscious function (we do it when we're asleep or passed out) but it's clearly evident to us that we have control over it, should we choose to exercise that control. It's like a gateway toward expanding our conscious awareness.

_________________
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People do not change when they see the light. They change when they feel the heat.  ― Freda Lewis-Hall


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:42 pm 
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hi songofreedom - this is just my experience with what you're describing. I believed in your model for myself for a long time. I believed something happened to me to make me feel and be as I am. gitterdone's question is key though - how to get this to come to light.

What happened with me is I stayed in "something happened to me" mentality which kept me unable to see beyond my framework of "things are happening to me and I can't do anything about it or the way that I am. I just am the way I am."

When I let go of that and thought, let me just deal with my present reality, I was more able to really get my hands dirty and start seeing different things and learning about possibilities. The problem I had before this was wanting to pinpoint just what went wrong and not being willing to look at my own actions and reactions clearly. Certainly looking at OCPD behaviors, it would seem that some sort of trauma would cause, for ex, the splitting you talk about, the divided parts that act so differently, among other things. But what's the nature of the trauma. Is is a particular neuronal setup that finds human existence itself to be traumatic? the same existence that another neuronal setup didn't? As gitterdone describes, things aren't so clear cut.

What's been key for me is taking personal responsibility for my actions and results in a way that I couldn't accept before. And learning to let go of needing to find an answer, of needing to solve things exactly. Going with the subject of this thread, control - of learning to see that I was trying to control what I don't have control over (pre-existing unknowns, external circumstances, future results, other people) and not trying to control what I do - my own reactions and actions and behaviors.

_________________
'
People do not change when they see the light. They change when they feel the heat.  ― Freda Lewis-Hall


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:31 pm
Posts: 53
Hi Francie,

Firstly, the fact that you acknowledge that you are made up somehow differently is the key to successfully overcoming the urge to be exposed. This fear, I believe, is the most consuming one amongst all those suffering from a disorder. After that it is simply about methods you employ to maintain the facade. The biggest question to answer is how do you get in touch with the part of you that holds the answers. To have the courage to face the trauma/neglect/abuse in the full knowledge that you were not to blame for it. To want to meet the part of you which you have devoted a lifetime to keeping hidden. Its an allmighty mountain to climb but can only be climbed by the OCPDer. No one else can do it for you. No amount of love from partners or children can or does influence this decision to go in search of your other self with the help of a therapist and to face your demons. Here's the rub. The OCPDer is not motivated to go on this journey for themselves alone as they have seemingly found the "perfect" answers to managing their lives "if only everyone would stop giving them hassle and would just join the bandwagon of success":). What ultimately motivates the OCPDer to want to make changes is "love". And here we come back to the old question we discussed many moths ago Francie. Bearing in mind what I have said about the rejected other self carrying around the feelings, how can the OCPDer then be driven by a feeling that lives with the other personality. The answer is to "integrate" with the other part and become twice the person (having embraced and acknowledged the trauma) as opposed to continually rejecting a part of yourself and living with contant low self esteem. I have to say that based on your extraordinarily candid and honestexpose of your disorder in a quest to understand better and to improve the lives of your "loved" ones you would be a petfect condidate for such a brave journey if you felt it might apply to you. You are so obviously one of the bright and sensitive children I referred to in my previous post. The research into dissociative identity disorder shows that other rejected altered personalities exist within the human psyche and they can indeed be integrated and a full recovery can occur. So if its possible with someone with 20 personalities, why not with 2?


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:10 pm
Posts: 228
Quote:

I excused his behavior and chalked it up to him living alone all his life; I finally figured out why he had been living alone because no one would be able to live with him. That's when I discovered OCPD and BINGO! I knew I had to leave for myself, there was nothing I could do to help him, he didn't want to admit he had a problem and even if he did, he would never be able to change it. He loved trying to guilt trip me though! He had some excellents skills at diversion tactics and redirecting blame or responsibility or changing the subject or suddently needing to go to a meeting. I feel sorry for him; he'll grow old alone and there won't be anyone there for him.

Thanks can't take anymore, this was certainly my experience, I can't believe how good my ex was at manipulation, projection, deflection all of it. It really messes with your head, for awhile he could almost convince me that up was down and black was white. You sound like you were more decisive about leaving than I was, it was very hard for me to leave and to not keep second guessing myself. But I didn't go back, I didn't get the hoovering that many people describe here, so it made it pretty clear. But boy I felt guilty for a long time. As I have read here and believe - you can't save someone who is drowning if they want to drown, they will just take you down with them. In my case, I think he would have been fine, but I sure wouldn't have.


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:03 pm
Posts: 252
very interesting thread and what SofF writes is my belief system as well.
I would add regarding "integration" that the one personality that should be "banned' from integration is the very harsh critic. I think this last personality serves no one any good. The lonely, hurt, angry, neglected, afraid child and the healthy adult need to ban together and dialogue and become good friends and kick the critical and harsh guy/girl
out of the sandbox.
This needs a very astute, patient therapist to facilitate.
I also believe that most of our fears grow exponentially the more you run from them and often what we fear may not be as bad as we thought after all.... the fear of the unknown is greater than the reality of what you will discover...my experience.


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:47 pm 
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Hi Alci,

All of the personalities should be embraced and integrated or it can't work. It is the act of loving your selves that brings about healing. The disorder is born from self rejection and the harsh critic is simply an alter created to defend against exposure ... if the light is shone in someone elses face then I won't be seen.


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:12 pm 
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Wow; this has all been so interesting. So many different ideas about the origins of OCDP. I tend to agree with this being something that develops more from childhood experiences. I think my ex was raised by an OCPD mother by what he described of her. She was the "perfect" one in the family, who was very organized and rigid with rules and expectations. He said she was always dressed nice everyday, we're talking high heels to stay home and dinner was always served at the same time; they never had birthday parties or celebrated holidays much either. He spoke of receiving beatings by her and said one time she broke a broom stick on him. I don't know, it's not a lot of information to go off of but I suspect.

He would always explain to me why I had to do things a certain way and it was because that's the way they (his family) always did it. If I brushed a miniscule crumb off the table while eating he was go into hysterics as to why I shouldn't I do that. If I didn't use the correct knife to cut carrots or didn't hold the knife properly he would get beyond agitated. He went ballistic once because I stirred some beans in "old" pot with a fork! Literally had a melt down! He didn't want me washnig dishes in his house because I wasn't his wife and it wasn't my home? He had another melt down one day because I didn't put the coffee away fast enough while making breakfast (yes, he let me do that!) and because I was unaware of his condition at the time, I got angry at his incredible "in my opinion" paranoia about every tiny little thing, that I took it back out and laid it on the counter and said "I'm the one making breakfast, so when I finish up here, I will return it to the pantry." Oh no........it was then that I heard "THIS IS NOT YOUR HOUSE!" I just left breakfast cooking on the stove and walked out. He didn't like my hair curled, it needed to be straight; he didn't like the clothes I wore, he refused to go to the mall with me in the "summer time" because I was wearing flip flops....... flip flops are only to worn in the house because that's how he was raised. And I could go on forever....... But the icing on the cake for me was when he told me that there were a "Million" things he loved about me but there were still 4 or 5 things that bothered him! Hello? Does he not know math? Let's compare....... 1 million to 4-5? I know he has to realize he has a problem; even if he doesn't want to admit it, somewhere inside him he has to know and if he didn't before, he does now, because I just flat out told him "you have OCPD, stay in denial if you want, but it's not going to change the fact that you do."


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:00 pm 
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@ SoF, I disagree about keeping the harsh critic. That is the persona that doesn't give anyone else a voice or validation, nor does it hear or validate others feelings, views, imperfections, tastes, desires and ultimately their humanity.
We agree to disagree on this point.


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:14 pm 
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Can't take anymore wrote:
Wow; this has all been so interesting. So many different ideas about the origins of OCDP. I tend to agree with this being something that develops more from childhood experiences. I think my ex was raised by an OCPD mother by what he described of her. She was the "perfect" one in the family, who was very organized and rigid with rules and expectations. He said she was always dressed nice everyday, we're talking high heels to stay home and dinner was always served at the same time; they never had birthday parties or celebrated holidays much either. He spoke of receiving beatings by her and said one time she broke a broom stick on him. I don't know, it's not a lot of information to go off of but I suspect.

He would always explain to me why I had to do things a certain way and it was because that's the way they (his family) always did it. If I brushed a miniscule crumb off the table while eating he was go into hysterics as to why I shouldn't I do that. If I didn't use the correct knife to cut carrots or didn't hold the knife properly he would get beyond agitated. He went ballistic once because I stirred some beans in "old" pot with a fork! Literally had a melt down! He didn't want me washnig dishes in his house because I wasn't his wife and it wasn't my home? He had another melt down one day because I didn't put the coffee away fast enough while making breakfast (yes, he let me do that!) and because I was unaware of his condition at the time, I got angry at his incredible "in my opinion" paranoia about every tiny little thing, that I took it back out and laid it on the counter and said "I'm the one making breakfast, so when I finish up here, I will return it to the pantry." Oh no........it was then that I heard "THIS IS NOT YOUR HOUSE!" I just left breakfast cooking on the stove and walked out. He didn't like my hair curled, it needed to be straight; he didn't like the clothes I wore, he refused to go to the mall with me in the "summer time" because I was wearing flip flops....... flip flops are only to worn in the house because that's how he was raised. And I could go on forever....... But the icing on the cake for me was when he told me that there were a "Million" things he loved about me but there were still 4 or 5 things that bothered him! Hello? Does he not know math? Let's compare....... 1 million to 4-5? I know he has to realize he has a problem; even if he doesn't want to admit it, somewhere inside him he has to know and if he didn't before, he does now, because I just flat out told him "you have OCPD, stay in denial if you want, but it's not going to change the fact that you do."


Your ex and mine must be brothers from the same mother!!!Soooooo similar to my ex and to his mother. Anal retentive times a gazillion.
An "opinion" on EVERYTHING! Before I knew what he had and at the very end over I don't know what of his bazillion dissatisfactions with the way things were done I answered "in the future if I want your opinion I'll ask for it". Immediately after a little boy's voice came out to answer "well that's not good, that won't work". I was thinking to myself I had never told anyone before to hold their opinions to themselves. The sheer triviality (in my mind) and volume of complaints/corrections/opinions coming out of his mouth was over the top. A rare event that he would ever have anything positive to say about anything, anyone. In the end I thought he was the most unhappy, confused, stuck, self sabotaging and boring person I had ever met. I was feeling suffocated. His mother is just as opinionated, nitpicky and miserable as he and they are to quote him "best friends". The kicker, if you weren't going to love his mother and be close to her he had no capacity to stay in the relationship. At his age 58 and his mother's 81 they talk long distance every night and complain to each a lot.
I gotta say, it makes me uber sad that he can't be in a relationship with a woman and has few friends. He will drive any woman away after a while...that I am sure.
I too told him after we split that I saw OCPD in him and he can deny and run away and never seek therapy but it wasn't going to change what is.
I wish him luck but he will end up exactly like his mother, sick and alone with no children even to check in on him. That's the price you pay for ignoring what all his ex girlfriends and other people in his life have pointed out to him whilst he digs himself down in trenches and hides away.
Underneath his strong veneer lies a very jealous and unhappy person. Couldn't stay with that negativity that has no end.
He also came from a very critical (both parents) highly dysfunctional background. His family is riddled with shame.


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:49 am 
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hi songofreedom, thx for your thoughtful post and kind words. While some of what you say does resonate with me (the general idea of acknowledging there are parts of myself I've rejected and all that entails), I want to make it clear that what you're describing isn't something I ascribe to regarding OCPD at this point. That is, the idea that there is some specific trauma or abuse to be uncovered and that I have various personalities to be integrated.

I'm aware of the general elements of my upbringing that likely exacerbated my (for want of a better phrase) general sensitivity to environment. I would say I have work to do on not feeling so responsible for either of those things (my nature and nurture, so to speak), while taking ownership of my response to it, as an adult now, and incorporating different responses in my current life.

That being said, your reasoning on why an OCPDr in particular might not be motivated to do this work is very helpful. It makes sense to me and is a good reminder of what I'm up against when it comes to doing this work. Also, I might add, I'm certainly not writing off what you describe for me or anyone else. Just that it seems a very specific path, and I've found that for me it's been more productive to incorporate a much wider spectrum of elements.

_________________
'
People do not change when they see the light. They change when they feel the heat.  ― Freda Lewis-Hall


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 Post subject: Re: OCPD and insecurity - Has to be in control constantly
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:22 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:31 pm
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Hi to all,

Its only a theory so Im happy to agree to differ on all points:) Its just so nice to have a place to share ideas and perspectives without feeling invalidated.


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