Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder Support Group

A support group for those with OCPD and their loved ones.
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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:21 am
Posts: 17
I would like to share *again* what I have learned in counseling. An OCPD person has relationships with details not people. It was only after we were separated I understood. I misread his detailing my life for love and caring.

He abandoned our marriage, packed up and left. I was an emotional mess. A few days later, he calls and wants to know how to exchange a pair of boots that I bought him for a different size. Please tell me this is insane.

I am so hurt, devastated. After the divorce proceedings he asked if I have the same phone and p.o. box number. He has asked several times. I would like to think he cares..but it's the detail.

Is it crazy to consider staying in a relationship with OCPD? Yep. I loved him. He was medicated only..no therapy. He was so detail oriented (sure it could be a gift) people would roll theirs eyes, look to me for rescue...and he...could not read these social ques.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:31 pm 
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Posts: 10
realitycheque wrote:
amysbest wrote:
I went home yesterday after work to find out that he had of his own volition contacted his insurance to find out what the hold up is on being reimbursed for our previous counseling sessions. This speaks to me of someone who is very willing to work on this issue.

Given what you've learned about OCPD, is this a likely reason or motivation, and a realistic futuristic inference?



I guess I haven't learned enough about OCPD to understand what you are asking. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Posts: 10
On some level my guy sure seems to fit OCPD to the hilt, but as I read more and more on here, in other ways not so much.

He is not controlling at all. He is a very laid back personality, friendly, kind, helpful and generous. In our relationship he is very loving and affectionate. We are best friends, have great chemistry together and have what I consider to be an excellent relationship.

The speed bump is his being "married to his house" - which I previously did not even have an issue with because I would rather him be at home working on projects than be a "football or golf widow." There are many worse things he could devote his time to.

I don't feel neglected, unloved or unhappy. I just don't understand how he can get upset over minor issues like pillows not being straightened for a few days. That is what started me on my search to understand the mind of a neat freak.

So here is my question, are there different levels of OCPD? Can you just have a couple areas that you are OCPD but not others? Because some of this just matches him perfectly and a lot sounds exactly opposite of him.

And another question, is there anyone on this board that is with an OCPD person and successfully navigating the issue?


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:25 am
Posts: 4874
amysbest wrote:
more-freedom wrote:
There are plenty of red flags but I will address these -
1) If you aren't married, why go to couseling to try to make a relationship work that isn't working?
2) You have young children, why would you want them around his obsessiveness?

This type of personality disorder does not have a quick fix. Even with medication and counseling it takes years and years to make changes and even then OCPD is still a struggle.

Just MOVE ON.
Divorces happen much more than we know happy couples. We both have seen and experienced how people can be happy and in love and then they get married and things fall apart. So I understand from a normal viewpoint that marriage is a scary institution to try and tackle. Now I see that he has the added complexity of being OCPD to add to that.
The last statistics I have heard about divorce are as follows: 1st marriage 50% fail 2nd marriage 87% fail 3rd marriage 93% fail. In a marriage with a person who has a personality disorder 89% fail.

amysbest wrote:
I went home yesterday after work to find out that he had of his own volition contacted his insurance to find out what the hold up is on being reimbursed for our previous counseling sessions. This speaks to me of someone who is very willing to work on this issue.
All this tells me is, he wants his money. An OCPDer doesn't like loose ends. He wanted to tie up that loose end so it's done. This has NOTHING to do with whether or not he is going to continue counseling. And the fact is, he needs his own counselor at this point to work on his own issues.

amysbest wrote:
The other way it does affect me is his workaholic tendencies which can leave him with no energy for me.... Then he decided not to go and just stayed and helped me cook dinner. We had our usual great evening together. So he definitely will meet my needs if I let him know.
I don't see his workaholic tendencies ever changing. My husband, daughter, son are all workaholics. Their spouses continually ask them to relax, they can't.

amysbest wrote:
I guess I'm not willing to just walk away without at least having some counseling around the issue and advice from a professional who can quickly and easily see if I am rationalizing things away or if we do have a chance to work through these issues in a healthy way.
I assure you, there is more than likely far better advice on this board than any couselor. We are LIVING with the OCPD. More than likely, a counselor has only read about it ( if you are lucky). More likely is that they never heard about it.

What is he like with your children?

_________________
Married 10+ years
Diagnosed 18 years ago
Fairly good marriage


“ When people show you who they are, believe them, the first time."
― Maya Angelou


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:26 pm
Posts: 939
Location: Southeast US
Amysbest question:
"So here is my question, are there different levels of OCPD? Can you just have a couple areas that you are OCPD but not others? Because some of this just matches him perfectly and a lot sounds exactly opposite of him."

I suggest that you get "Too Perfect" for a resource. It explains it well. Also look up the Phillipson article "the right stuff" here :http://www.ocdonline.com/articlesphillipson.php

Then there is the DSM, currently being revised but still relevant as is: http://www.biologicalunhappiness.com/DSM-OCPD.htm
note that OCPD requires issues in 4 or the 8 possible areas.

in LovethatOCPDman's tag line there is a link to her website that contains helpful places to find information.

"And another question, is there anyone on this board that is with an OCPD person and successfully navigating the issue?"

There are several who openly admit that they are doing well, a minority who claim that it is resolved. There are multiple times as many who are struggling day by day, some for tens of years. I suspect that the number of couples who have divorced exceeds the number doing well by at least a factor of 10.

If it is OCPD you are dealing with be aware that symptoms become worse with age.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:16 am
Posts: 34
I am curious though - has your boyfriend even been diagnosed with OCPD? Has this been broached with your counselor? Will you both start seeing individual counselors now that you understand the dynamic a bit more? I'm not sure if he even has OCPD - or if you are in a great big ol' state of denial :) (Not judging, that was me!!)

I too would love to hear that there is some HOPE - hear about some couples who have made it. Not that it would change my own experience with OCPD - but I don't hate my ex - I hope he gets well. And I also want to lay to rest to the voice in my head that still feels so foolish for thinking that he could and would change. I want to know that he really can. Too late for me, but that ultimately, he'll be ok.

I agree that the OCPD'er is in love with the details - not the person. What do you have to offer him? Once that is off of the table, he may be gone. No looking back. I read more and more about other people with OCPD doing the same thing to their "loved ones" as mine did to me - just walked away. Not a word since, and it's been over 2 weeks. And it's the second time it has happened. And I think he did the same thing to his ex-wife. All indications are that he has already moved on to a very "nice" (read, passive) girl - like the same day I tried to make some reasonable bounderies. It's surreal - one second he is whole-heartedly with me, the next - poof!

I'm just saying that... it's deflating, becoming aware of how the person with OCPD sees you. Of course we all appreciate what our significant other has to offer - but LOVE is also about the PERSON+THEIR FLAWS. He would always thank me for what I've given him, ask me for assurances about my feelings for him - only later did I realize that I was getting none of that in return.

Someone who can and does behave like my ex did/does is either very sick or a complete a-hole - neither of whom I want to be with.

I must say that my own stress and anxiety levels have taken a complete plunge since I've had more time to recover from the abandonment - it's so freeing!


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:26 pm
Posts: 10
Island Girl wrote:
I am curious though - has your boyfriend even been diagnosed with OCPD? Has this been broached with your counselor? Will you both start seeing individual counselors now that you understand the dynamic a bit more? I'm not sure if he even has OCPD - or if you are in a great big ol' state of denial :) (Not judging, that was me!!)


No, he has not been diagnosed with OCPD. And when I look at the link given me in the above post on biologicalunhappiness.com, he doesn't even fit any one of those exactly. His big issue is he works hard on his house - it's his baby. He does make lots of lists, but he says it's because of a really bad memory. He does delegate yard work, but he complains constantly that it doesn't get done the way he wants. And of course his obsession with cleaning, but only some of the house. Other rooms in the house are stacked up and in disorder and that doesn't seem to bother him, which is why it really surprises me that such small imperfections will cause him angst.

He is not a hoarder and readily throws things away, but he does collect newspaper clippings that are piled up from years past in one of his spare rooms. He is not strict at all about ethics/morals.

I can't remember some of the others on the list.

Anyway, long answer to say no he is not diagnosed.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:13 pm
Posts: 1336
Location: OBX, NC, 'Merica, Earth, Milky Way, Local Galactic Group
amysbest wrote:
realitycheque wrote:
amysbest wrote:
I went home yesterday after work to find out that he had of his own volition contacted his insurance to find out what the hold up is on being reimbursed for our previous counseling sessions. This speaks to me of someone who is very willing to work on this issue.
Given what you've learned about OCPD, is this a likely reason or motivation, and a realistic futuristic inference?
I guess I haven't learned enough about OCPD to understand what you are asking. :(
more-freedom wrote:
All this tells me is, he wants his money. An OCPDer doesn't like loose ends. He wanted to tie up that loose end so it's done. This has NOTHING to do with whether or not he is going to continue counseling. And the fact is, he needs his own counselor at this point to work on his own issues.
This sums up my thoughts on looking at an OCPD behavior (i.e., money matters) and concluding something positive about the future (i.e., a commitment to improving the relationship) despite much information to the contrary. I just wanted you to think about what other reasons your SO might have for being impatient to be reimbursed. All of us have done a bit of wishful thinking that contradicted the reality of OC traits.

amysbest wrote:
I just don't understand how he can get upset over minor issues like pillows not being straightened for a few days. That is what started me on my search to understand the mind of a neat freak.
I started my search the same way. What took me a while to understand is that Anxieties drive the behaviors. This is true for OCPD and OCD and other anxiety-based disorders. The dysfunctional coping that the disordered person develops largely involves Control. My DW and I had a pillow fight, not in its usual sense, but in who had final control of the pillows' arrangement. I did it for fun, she did it for relief. After 5 rounds she finally got so mad she grabbed the pillows, threw them in the closet, and slammed the door so she didn't have to see them. She was seething all afternoon. She needed the orderliness and suppression of chaos to "control" the anxious feelings she had (always has) about things in life that she cannot control. If you start taking away their years-long coping mechanisms, the stress and need for control will spill out elsewhere, often straining the relationship until it breaks. And intellectually you think you can handle it, but emotionally it's very difficult, until you get to the point of asking "is this really worth it?"


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:56 pm 
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I suspected that my SO had some type of OCD, but OCPD didn't fit exactly. It was when I stumbled upon the OCPD that everything made sense. If you SO is telling you that the OCPD traits fit him, then you should listen to him. He is giving you the warning signs and you should be paying attention to that. I ditto what was said above about the insurance for the counseling sessions. His doing this does not any any way reflect how committed he is to counseling. Also, with my SO I didn't recognize the controlling behavior because it was so subtle. It wasn't until after I ended the relationship that I started to realize all of the little things that he did to try to maintain control.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:41 pm 
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I'm beginning to wonder if he isn't OCD instead. He did agree but he was only privy to what I was telling him. I didn't read him a list and ask him if this sounded like him. I presented to him the ways that I thought it fit him and he agreed.

But the other aspect that I keep thinking about today is that he was wanting to know if there was a way to fix it. We had a long conversation Saturday night where he was telling me how hard it is for him to do anything, that his brain is so messed up and he can't remember things. How he puts on a good front to everyone but really inside he feels tortured. (that is all my condensed paraphrase version of what he said) To me, that is where it sounds more like OCD - he is aware that there is a problem and that it interferes with his daily life and he wants to fix it.

And he was wanting to get back to counseling which is what drove him to call about the reimbursement. We talked about finding a new counselor since this one is out of network and that is part of the hold up. In network we won't have any delays. (gee, I feel like I'm having to JADE! ;) ha-ha)


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 11:24 pm
Posts: 299
If you haven't, read through the Cammer Test and score him as best you can: self-tests-f8.html. This will help you get a better handle on whether or not he has OCPD.

Then, if you suspect he has this disorder, know that he's in a one-person psychological system (http://austininconnection.org/documents ... ouse-1.pdf) and YOU are NOT the ONE.

Then know, that you're locked into a variable pattern of reinforcement where sometimes his behavior towards you is wonderful and sometime's it's not. This reinforcement pattern is used to establish addictions like gambling. The variability of an OCPDr's behavior makes it especially hard to break away from them because there often seems to be hope.

Also know, that if he has a personality disorder, you're in the first stage of grief -- denial. You can stay there for months or years or life.

See other people. See him too if you want. Let time pass. It has a miraculous way of solving problems.

Oh -- and listen to what the nons here say about setting boundaries. They're essential.

Quick example:

My OCPD XBF called the other night. I asked him to give me a ride home after I dropped my car at the shop. 20 minute round trip for him. Knowing him, we were going to be on the phone that long, so I thought the time might as well be productive. He suggested that I walk or ride my bike. It was getting dark and there was an electrical storm in progress. I told him that wouldn't work for me and that he should NEVER call me to ask me for a ride anywhere and got off the phone. 90 seconds later, the phone rang, and he offered to give me the ride I had asked for.

I don't want to have interact like that -- but that's what it takes. I was grateful to him for reminding me why we aren't together any more. Do I hope he'll change? Of course I do, for his sake and mine. Am I holding my breath? No. I've gotten on with my life and have had some of the best months of my life during 2012.

A little more:

Listen to what the people here are saying about counselors. He needs his own -- an expert in cognitive behavior therapy, because he literally needs to rewire his brain, which is what CBT does. You're lucky, he sounds somewhat aware and motivated.

I wish both of you success!


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:19 pm 
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Hi
I posted on this forum last Sept/Oct about my break up with my boyfriend of 4 years, and he had been married 2x before! He had 2 teenage kids from his 2nd marriage of 12 years (kids are living with their mom). His first marriage (when he was 21 y-old) lasted about a year. His 2nd marriage lasted 12 years but he told me things were difficult even at the beginning!

After the first 6 months in our relationship I noticed he would occasionally have bouts of depression when he didnt have anything planned on a Saturday, and would drive somewhere (even spend 3 or 4 hours on the highway) just to go to a winery, or go to an outlook store, and in the winter he would go skiing (where he had a ski apt) and not invite me if he went with his pals (but then got mad if I didnt go when he wanted to go!).

If he decided to stay in the city, he would go shopping on Saturday (we go out for dinner Fri or Sat), and play sports on Sunday morning, have some beers, and watch TV in the afternoon. He would decide at the last minute if he felt like going out to eat in the evening. And if I suggested somewhere we could go, 95% of the time he would tell me 'he's already decided for us'!!

I soon noticed that he often enjoyed some beers or wine at lunch on weekends when we went skiing or even if we just to a restaurant in the city. It made him feel less anxious and controlling, so it was probably his way of self-medicating.

I started noticing his need to have rules (e.g. how to cook dinner, how to pack shopping bags, how I should always follow him when we skied, etc). Then I noticed how he would criticize things I said or did (e.g. I was not as smart as he was, I was boring, I should let him CONTROL me etc etc!).

So naturally I started realizing he was a controlling but I didnt know OCPD even existed, so I attributed it to depression and the need to express pent-up frustration. I told him that I thought he was depressed and should see someone otherwise I couldnt stay in the relationship. I told him it didn't make sense for him to decide what to do all the time.

(He would tell me that there was no point in getting therapy as he probably wouldn't change anyway.)

The strangest thing is that he told several times (when we talked about how things weren't going well and his controlling/depression issues) that I was "too NICE"!!!??!! But when I spoke up about something I didnt agree with or when I said I didnt want to be talked to like a child, he didn't like it and would shut me out for 3 or 4 days!!

So it seems like it would be a never-ending battle to be with someone who has OCPD. I've noticed OCPDers often have relationships with people who are shy or who have low self-esteem (I am shy but I had enough self-esteem to keep myself from believing everything he told me).

If they don't acknowledge the desire or need to change the way they behave, then I don't see the relationship can work! If he agrees to go see a therapist and wants to it for you as well as for himself, then it's worth the effort to try and make it work :)

I don't mean to sound negative, I just want to point out some OCPD traits that never go away. I so wished it had been different and I still miss my boyfriend so much. But I cant imagine being around someone who talks to me the way he did!! Sometimes I think he didnt even remember things he said or how he behaved towards me but that doesn't mean it could have been ignored.

I really wish you all the best going forward. I hope you can figure out what works soon so you dont spend time working on something that isn't worth the effort.

-Bettina


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:35 am 
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Hi Bettina, you've brought up a question that I was going to ask - do they chose a relationship specifically with someone passive, low self-esteem, broken childhood etc that they feel they can "mould" into what they want ? I did fit the bill, and think he liked that I was passive and accommodating, but didn't like it when I tried to have my own opinions or requirements- You could have any opinion as long as it was the same as his.

The story is very similar, I've read that OCPD comes to the fore in early adulthood. My husband has similarly been married twice before, the first for a year at 21, he tells people she had a car crash which suggests she died but they divorced, ( I didn't realise this myself for several months ) and then an 18 year marriage where they both had affairs, (although he told me he didn't until later, I have been told by a few relatives to the contrary ) and we have been married 9 years and I'm now divorcing him, goodbye no.3 He hasn't got the divorce papers yet, but I have heard rumours that he is seeing a married woman we know, could get messy but I am observing with dignity and checking his mobile (my old one) has confirmed it for me. You don't message someone at 1 am unless something is going on.

It doesn't upset me now, I've done the crying bit for many years feeling at fault for the marriage not working out, but it shows how unfeeling and ruthless they are. He used to say that if I died and he met someone the following week, it would be fine. I felt that a newly bereaved husband might not be looking for a new partner after only a week, but what do I know.

Another similar situation was that we always had to follow his plans for what to do , where to go, as it was easier to follow his suggestions than suffer the moods and anger otherwise. We sometimes went to a nearby pretty town for Saturday lunch, I would do some shopping and we would meet up at say 1 pm. If I was 5 minutes late, he would be furious and say we are not having lunch now, we are going home.

So a drive home with both of us angry, the result - a spoilt weekend that could have been lovely. I would say to him, why do you feel you need to do that , when we could now be having a nice lunch and relaxing instead of being angry with each other ? Of course, it didn't work the other way round, he was usually extremely punctual but if I had an appointment he would make me late by stopping or detouring for something, and then say " well I'M always punctual, inferring that I was the one to make us late. GRRRR.

To give a short answer to your original question ; No,I don't think you have any hope of a normal relationship, it ain't gonna happen. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:13 pm 
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blue girl wrote:
He used to say that if I died and he met someone the following week, it would be fine. I felt that a newly bereaved husband might not be looking for a new partner after only a week, but what do I know.

:(


Hi,
It all sounds so familiar, unfortunately!! UGHHH!
But I am also happy to know that it's a real disorder and the ones who don't want to get some help will never change. At least some people with depresssion know what to do to make things work or see a counselor to help stay positive.

My ex would start his day by getting angry at the traffic when he would drive to work in the morning, he would never stays level-headed and calm in normal day-to-day situations!

I am now trying to remember how I stayed with him, and I get teary eyed thinking that I must have been so happy to have a boyfriend (after 5 years of dating incompatible guys) that I ignored or was in total denial about all his OCPD traits!! Life sure seems complex becuase for years I would be finicky about the boyfriends (and thinking my boyfriends were never good enough) and then when I met my ex-boyfriend, I decided he was the one 'good enough' but I was completely wrong!!

The worst is that he doesn't have much empathy and I am passionate/emotional so I have lots of empathy. He would say things, such as 'life is short and then we die', and therefore 'nothing matters'. And that he thought he was smarter than pretty much everyone else!

So when you mention your husband said he would go out with 'someone the following week', that sounds exactly the way my ex would talk. It's as if they have zero emotions, scary. But they are able to laugh and show some joy, so it makes you think they have emotions. But his emotions were so eratic and extreme that I couldnt figure one minute to the next how he would react!!

Good luck! The best advice (that others on this forum gave me) is to start thinking about what YOU WANT... I hadn't thought about that in about 2 years!!!

-Bettina


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 Post subject: Re: Is it crazy to consider staying in relationship with OCP
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:00 am 
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Posts: 70
amysbest, I suggest you take a break. maybe not see him for a few weeks and give yourself time to reflect on how this makes you feel.
I have been married for 20+ years to a man I suspect has OCPD. My children are now teenagers and it has definitely gotten a lot worse in the last few years. Last winter, he went away for a month on a business trip. I could hardly believe the way the burden of stress was lifted off me while he was away. The kids noticed it too and commented that things were much more relaxed when dad was not around. Then he came back and was awful. could not cope with the kids or family life in general. It took a while for him to adjust again. I am still with him but on my terms. I live my life as I see fit and I am there for the kids (he never has time for them). If he doesn't like it, I have told him he is free to leave.
Think carefully before you make any commitments here. Can you live the rest of your life like this? What if his behaviour gets worse and he becomes more controlling when your children are teenagers? You need to think this through very, very carefully, particularly now that you know there is the possibility of OCPD. (You are lucky in this respect - my husband will not admit that he has a problem. He thinks the kids are not normal and has told me that he thinks I am "unbalanced".) Bit of a coincidence there - we all have problems except him!)


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