Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder Support Group

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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:13 pm
Posts: 1346
Location: OBX, NC, 'Murica, Earth, Milky Way, Local Galactic Group
As a glorified plumber in my late 20s, I had as an epiphany the following progression regarding collection, connection, and reflection:
Data --> Information --> Knowledge

Now decades later, with the help of Francie's tangent, I have realized a parallel progression:
Events --> Experience --> Wisdom

Perhaps some day, these ideas will be presented as an analogy question on the SAT.
Or maybe the question would be what do you get when you combine Knowledge and Wisdom.

As another aside, I find Aprilshowers's personal anecdote to be very applicable and appropriate to the subject of this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:57 am
Posts: 78
noeggshells wrote:

I can only speak for myself, but I know that many, many times I have forgiven and started over with a new attitude to focus on what I love about dh and to better understand all aspects of his personality. Your blog has helped me with that. But then, it's another Saturday at home and he's angry with me and our young children over every little thing, and I can only see ocpd as something that hurts me deeply and permanently damages my precious children. Like many people, I come to this forum at those times, when I am most angry at dh and ocpd and, yes, full of resentment. Then I forgive again and the cycle goes on. I can see that the venting that happens in this forum can be hurtful to those who are coping with ocpd, but I think that the ocpd-only section allows you a safe space to avoid all that venting. Here, we need to be able to vent our feelings, including that we can't see ocpd as a "gift." Again, I can only speak for myself, but it's very difficult to share my experiences with others in real life, who have never been in my shoes and either assume I'm exaggerating or condemn dh and can't understand why I'm still with him. Just reading this forum in those difficult times makes me feel sane.


This is how I feel as well. Thank you for expressing my sentiments and letting me know again that I'm not alone in this struggle.


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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:49 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:27 pm
Posts: 112
belgianguy wrote:
Quote:
Also, belgianguy, you think it's not humility because I am writing positively about my own personality type...


KK, you should read with rather more care what I said. I said that the general tone of your approach to improve the way ocpd'ers deal with their dearest ones is to appeal to the 'strengths' of the ocpd mind, which is of superior intelligence and sensitivity in your view. If the ocpd person uses this strength, (s)he can overcome the issues ocpd poses in the relationship. You also put that looking at the positive side of things is more likely to bring results than being negative.

You should evaluate if that is a fair assessment of your approach.

I also state that I believe it can work and is more likely to appeal to ocpd'ers than the description of hurt, pain and disillusion evident on this site.

And then my point is that the appeal to superiority is not humble 'by nature' and that we non's (as in 'non-ocpd' with an ocpd (ex-)partner or other SO) would put more faith in an approach that incorporates more humility, since the arrogance and know it all attitude is part of the emotional problem in the relationship. I am - emphatically - not condemning you for writing positively about your personality.

So, in my view, your mind is distorting my statement into something else so that it becomes a statement that no longer threatens your flow of ideas and puts me safely with the negative whiners. As a consequence, you do not have to take my point seriously.

This is not really a sign of objectivity, superior intelligence and sensitivity, though; this is where logic actually breaks down and where your ocpd mind betrays you.

My eye also falls on the 'you guys' statement. I find that the reactions you are getting cover a wide range of statements; some of us do not use definitive language and objective statements. So you are also making the 'sweeping generalisation' you accuse 'us' of making.

But: I wish you success. Any way of improving ocpd is worthwhile exploring.


Where are you getting this idea of "superiority" from? I do not think any person is better than another. I personally believe in a higher power whose excellence is so great that it dwarfs humankind's excellence, such that one individual's comparison to another is as insignificant as an ant's comparison to another ant.

Sure I may mention things that OCPDers are good at, even better at, but I don't think I've ever suggested OCPDers are a better race of people...

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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:53 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:39 am
Posts: 115
Wow. I realise I'm pretty new here...but reading this thread made me feel just as anxious as dealing with my SO on some of his bad days.
Everyone still breathing needs to feel validated and accepted in some way in life. The intensity of each side is so intense, I can't work out what the real issue is.
Can I ask, without seeming provocative.... Is this what JADING is? I'm still trying to get my head clear on how to do this effectively. I'll re- read the thread to get some clarity.


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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:57 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:09 am
Posts: 1083
Just being new to the forum does not mean that some of the posts here would not make you feel like it is a rehash/renactment of your home life. I had to back away from this thread as it was making me feel like I should engage in the JADEing of which there is a great deal from both sides.Once again, you are not alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:42 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:27 pm
Posts: 112
Thoughtiwasmad wrote:
Wow. I realise I'm pretty new here...but reading this thread made me feel just as anxious as dealing with my SO on some of his bad days.
Everyone still breathing needs to feel validated and accepted in some way in life. The intensity of each side is so intense, I can't work out what the real issue is.
Can I ask, without seeming provocative.... Is this what JADING is? I'm still trying to get my head clear on how to do this effectively. I'll re- read the thread to get some clarity.


JADEing is having some kind of need that can be communicated directly but the JADEer chooses to communicate indirectly through the use of justifying, arguing, defending, and explaining an end result that would satisfy that original need just the same.

Yes this topic shows JADEing. The core message of what some of the nons want to communicate is "I am hurt, I have been so wronged that it is difficult for me to think positively about OCPD." But rather than communicating that directly (and I would have no argument against them if they had just communicated like that), they went on to make conclusions about the condition of the writer (me), the validity of his wisdom, etc all without having all the information. So I then give them more of the information to show that their conclusion is off. But then those nons find the need to further twist that and say "oh you're just trying to twist things around so you don't have to feel bothered" (again, JADEing).

what i'm also beginning to see is how some of the nons on this topic who are doing this JADEing are accusing me of being the JADEer.. i'm only trying to give more information and oftentimes asking questions like "couldn't it be that _______?" to show that they don't have the full picture to make their judgments.

i actually have a lot of confidence in my communication skills and i excel in it in my romantic relationship, in my friendships, etc... it is on this forum where communication seems the most impossible for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:27 pm
Posts: 112
also. This topic may appear like an ongoing circular argument but it is actually not. there are just multiple arguments going on in the same topic. however, since one person is being highlighted (me) it appears as though i'm displaying typical OCPD circular argument behaviour. No this is not it either. I'm just responding to different people and each of those individual arguments are coming to an end no later than they have to.

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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 1:31 am
Posts: 401
Location: USA
kidkimbo wrote:
Thoughtiwasmad wrote:
Wow. I realise I'm pretty new here...but reading this thread made me feel just as anxious as dealing with my SO on some of his bad days.
Everyone still breathing needs to feel validated and accepted in some way in life. The intensity of each side is so intense, I can't work out what the real issue is.
Can I ask, without seeming provocative.... Is this what JADING is? I'm still trying to get my head clear on how to do this effectively. I'll re- read the thread to get some clarity.


JADEing is having some kind of need that can be communicated directly but the JADEer chooses to communicate indirectly through the use of justifying, arguing, defending, and explaining an end result that would satisfy that original need just the same.


I'm really impressed with the level of intelligent dialogue that happens on this forum. People really take time to think things out and express their views in cogent ways.

With that said, I need to respectfully disagree with KK's definition of JADE-ing.

I understand JADE-ing (Justifying-Arguing-Defending-Explaining) to be what a person does AFTER they have presented their: point of view, opinion, demand, criticism.

They do it because the person they're 'attempting' to communicate with just isn't getting it.
You can see how JADE-ing is a 2 way street... Each person in the conversation can engage in it, in a sometimes desperate effort to be 'understood'.

The conversation often goes 'south' for reasons that I'm not going to get into.

BUT, may I state (without JADE-ing) that, KK, your most recent post most definitely was JADE-ing. :|

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- George Bernard Shaw

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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 4:50 pm
Posts: 387
JADEing, (Justifying, Arguing, Defending, and Explaining) are all perfectly reasonable techniques we all employ in situations where we feel attacked or misunderstood and are seeking resolution. The trouble is, they are only effective when both parties are seeking resolution and are interested in mutual understanding. That's why it is so often recommended to not use them when engaging with someone who is entrenched in OCPD thinking. In those situations, the goal is not mutual understanding.


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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:22 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 1:31 am
Posts: 401
Location: USA
aprilshowers wrote:
JADEing, (Justifying, Arguing, Defending, and Explaining) are all perfectly reasonable techniques we all employ in situations where we feel attacked or misunderstood and are seeking resolution. The trouble is, they are only effective when both parties are seeking resolution and are interested in mutual understanding. That's why it is so often recommended to not use them when engaging with someone who is entrenched in OCPD thinking. In those situations, the goal is not mutual understanding.


Aprishowers... Well said!!! I think your explanation was much more clear than mine and right on the money.
I'm reading an excellent book called: I'm Right, You're Wrong, Now What?: Break the Impasse and Get What You Need [Kindle Edition]
by Xavier Amador (Author)

It gives really good strategies for communicating and it has worked wonders for me in my life.

_________________
"The greatest problem in communication is the illusion that it has been accomplished".
- George Bernard Shaw

My new blog:. http://seekingclearvision.com
Up and Ready


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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:06 pm
Posts: 266
Hi all,

I am finding it a little difficult in this thread to see where a debate on opinion ends and where emotionally fueled rhetoric begins - on both sides.

OCPD *IS* a disorder. It *CAN* be destructive to relationships.

I say *CAN* because it can only be destructive if both sides allow it. The non-OCPDer needs to realize that if they choose to stay in the relationship, there are certain boundaries that need to be put up and enforced. If that doesn't work - than the non-OCPD partner needs to make the decision to leave the relationship. Don't allow your dignity to be stripped away from you. If you are married, you are not entitled to a good relationship just because rings and vows were exchanged. You can only put into the relationship what you are both willing and are able to - and simply hope for the best.

On the flip side, the OCPDer needs to realize that if they choose to stay in the relationship, there are consequences for their poor behavior. Even if they do not agree with it - or agree with it at the time, they need to realize this fact and either choose to work towards a healthier relationship or be forced to endure that it will end (as we all know that we wouldn't accept the fact that it will end ;) )

There have been many articles from the Gift of OCPD that I enjoyed to read. Some that I relate to, some that I do not. Some that I agree with and some that I do not. Most of them, I nod my head at some parts and other parts of the article I wonder how he came to that conclusion.

One thing that I have talked about on this forum several times now is not to stereotype all OCPDers into the same crowd. Each of us are different, just like the nons. Each of us have our own quirks and different poor coping mechanisms that we learned over years. Some of us have been able to overcome several of our bad habits, while others have continued to spiral out of control.

I think that when reading a blog, people need to realize that this is the opinions and beliefs of one person. It allows you to have a glimpse into their lives and how they perceive themselves. If the blogger is brave enough, they are willing to share the good with the bad giving you a broader sense of their journey.

I know that KK often explains people with OCPD in his blogs. But, try to think of it as "people like me with OCPD" when reading his blog. Not all OCPDers are like your own afflicted SO. Many are functional in society. However, I know that some are not. Many of us also have differing degrees of how critical we are with our SO in our relationship. Try to not project your own experiences onto the words that KK is using to describe his own. I think that is why people sometimes get emotionally upset when reading certain articles.

As far as a gift... well... how often do we use the words "gifted children" or that "person is gifted" when referring to an affliction. A lot of people who discover what OCPD is or this forum on their own who have OCPD themselves, often already feel bad about themselves and a horrible self esteem. To make matters worse, when discovering this out on their own, they begin to realize that it is their behavior that has caused much of the friction within their relationships. This can be a bitter pill and is often met with depression and thoughts of "I am the problem". In my case, when I hit rock bottom in my life last year, I viewed myself as flawed. It didn't matter what I did - I wouldn't ever be able to undo the pain that I caused. This was very dangerous thinking and it has very dangerous consequences.

For me, I don't view OCPD as a gift or a curse. I just see it as a part of who I am. Just like the fact that I am introverted. It's not a bad thing - it's only bad if I force it on others. But for others, a person who have OCPD may find viewing this as a blessing in disguise *IF* they use it to their own and everyone else's advantage. I can only see the term "gift" as a positive view point as long as it isn't used to justify their own actions.


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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:38 pm
Posts: 1978
Thoughtiwasmad wrote:
.but reading this thread made me feel just as anxious as dealing with my SO on some of his bad days.
... The intensity of each side is so intense, I can't work out what the real issue is.
nicely put. Like gs I echo your sentiment here. I found this thread taking the life out of me this week. Trying to figure out what the issue was. But I think I've found some peace, thx to reading your post this morning.

I think it's about underlying premises. I was thinking that the underlying premise is "OCPD is a disorder." I mean, that's the basic idea here yes? So from there, "OCPD is a gift" sounds to me like someone saying "leg amputation is a gift," or "diabetes is a gift." It sounds like a person saying, hey I've got a different look here, come down this road with me to see something. And I can go down that road without too many misgivings, even if I don't agree with "OCPD is a gift," because i'm not being asked to abandon my original premise.

But.....that's not the premise for someone living with a person unaware of OCPD. That premise is more like "OCPD is a disorder unrecognized by the person in my life who has it." They are being asked to set aside a huge part of their original premise to go down that road. And that's the part that I couldn't see.

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People do not change when they see the light. They change when they feel the heat.  ― Freda Lewis-Hall


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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:09 pm 
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kidkimbo wrote:
JADEing is having some kind of need that can be communicated directly but the JADEer chooses to communicate indirectly through the use of justifying, arguing, defending, and explaining an end result that would satisfy that original need just the same.


That's not what the acronym JADE stands for. What you're describing sounds a little like passive aggression, though I'm not at all sure.

The full saying is "don't JADE." The idea is that when you're doing something that should be within your discretion, you don't have to talk and talk and talk until some other person agrees that that thing is OK. You don't Justify, or Argue about, or Defend, or Explain your decision. You just do it.

So if you want to eat a cookie, or buy a magazine, or go to the grocery, or join a book club, or do any of those other zillions of things that an adult has every right to do, you don't have to persuade anyone that those things are OK.


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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:07 am
Posts: 988
Quote:
Kidkimbo: Some people with extreme emotional sensitivity, such as myself, possess a near-psychic ability to sense even the history of emotions, hurts, and pains of others. One of the things I learned about myself in all my travels was that I can even sense the pain and suffering collectively experienced by the people of an entire nation. People with OCPD have all the right tools to enrich the lives of others through empathy.


From your blog. From the relevant part of text. This is where I get my idea that you are claiming some superiority and encourage ocpd'ers to use their positive strength in order to show more empathy and improve their lives.

About JADEing. Fava's point about 'do not JADE' is right: if it does not belong to the responsibility of the ocpd'er, do not enter into a discussion; if you allow a discussion, you tacitly acknowledge that the ocpd'er has something to say or that you need to defend your personal space. So it is about setting boundaries.

There is another point: discussion with an ocpd'er is often frustrating for a non (and from this thread, it appears to be as frustrating for the ocpd'er). We are justifying, arguing and defending and elaborating in this thread, in my mind justifiably, because there is a discussion going on. It appears to me that the rules are not identical on 'both sides of the fence'. And it is that difference that is in my view the essence of ocpd.

In another post KK describes ocpd'ers as 'thinkaholics', mulling over a thought not a couple of times, but thousands of times. And that is probably the essence of ocpd. An idea has been mulled so thoroughly and viewed at from all possible angles _within the ocpd-mind_ that it cannot possibly be wrong any more. Heaven forbid, too, because if it is wrong, back you go into the 2000 loops of thinking it all over again, with sleepless nights and possibly depression ensuing.

So: ocpd-views are well thought out, far more thoroughly than the views by non's. Sometimes overdone, in far too much detail, hence the 'ridiculous rules'. Logical. But their main flaw is: they do not incorporate 'dissenting' views by other intelligent people, not if they are in the sensitive area where the ocpd-brain is going to 'punish' its owner with another thousand rounds of always thinking the same stuff. Much easier to rely on the fact that you have thought out the stuff more thoroughly anyway (you have), that the non will freely inject subjective illogical elements such as feelings (we do), that we just do not care as much about the specific topic ('have it your way', we do not lie awake over it). So for every specific topic, better let it go from the non's point of view; and it suits the ocpd'er. And after a while, the non's find out the ocpd'er believes we are halfwitted and unable to cogently plead a cause, and the ocpd'er feels free to think for us and take responsibility for the areas we do not discuss about. And it is just easier for us non's to go along with it than start a discussion, where a point we make is only rarely accepted.

I quote again from kk's site, about ocpd:

Quote:
Your excellence in intimacy also extends to your other close relationships. Rather than spreading your attention thin over multiple surface-level relationships, you would rather zero in all your energy to a few friends and experience deep, meaningful, intimate friendships where you can offer your infinite love, forgiveness, patience, and generosity.

You have a gifted mind that aids you in your pursuit of excellence. You are highly intelligent, especially in logical reasoning and problem solving. You are a talented strategist. You are able to read people and their motives well. Your mind has a natural ability to understand things that have an orderly structure to them. If a complex machine from outer space was designed in a logical manner and given to the people of Earth to try to figure out its use, you would be the first one to master it.

But more than all of these powerful characteristics that give you the upper-hand in delivering great feats of excellence, the thing that really sets you apart as a beautiful creation is not what you can do, but who you are. You have such a beautiful heart. Your sensitive heart feels the pain of this world and recognizes, through your order-sensitive gifted mind, that there is something wrong that needs to be changed. You have a heart for justice that breaks when you see injustice happen as a result of the absence or lack of moral order in this world. You want to champion moral order and defeat injustice because your selfless heart genuinely cares about others.


But when I say, in shorthand, that KK states ocpd'ers to be superior and that they should use this superiority to address some of the issues they cause, I am - in his mind - distorting reality and putting words in his mouth that are not there. And that is the exact point where communication stops.


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 Post subject: Re: Gift of OCPD!??!?!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:12 am 
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Posts: 761
Thanks for doing your homework on this one BG. I had to wear sunglasses when reading the quotes :shock:


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